shannon_f_r ([info]shannon_f_r) wrote,
@ 2006-02-17 15:16:00
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I can't keep up.
Is it just me, or has everyone in the official and unofficial Objectivist movement gone completely batshit crazy lately? I happened upon this juvenile little screed a day or two ago, and I'm tempted to copy it to a Word file just in case he dirty deletes and disavows the whole thing later. Really. Here's my summary: "There are people after me. I can't say anything more now. But oh, a reckoning will come. Oh yes. A reckoning will come." The spectacle of his clique circling the wagons around him doesn't do anything to dispel the impression of a particularly nasty corridor of a cheese-stinky middle school, either. And you can take that mixed metaphor to the bank.

But when I went a'searching to see if ANYONE knew ANYTHING about the TOC Summer Seminar line-up that TOC has thus far failed to post, I found my eyes wandering somewhat aimlessly over this. Now it's true that part of my initial impression of, well, insanity had to do with the fact that there's some sort of year-long history dating back to the publication of a book about the Brandens, or the Brandens' books about Rand. (It also appeared on SOLOHQ's successor, which I consider a priori the sort of nuthouse that gives nuthouses a bad name.) But on a second reading, I realized that the whole thing is--insane. Nathaniel Branden wrote a book about Ayn Rand. Someone wrote a book about Nathaniel Branden. Somehow, accusations of alcoholism went flying. I have the impression that the earlier-mentioned, Robert Bidinotto-sponsored rant might have something to do with all of this, but I'm not absolutely sure.

As a (relative) newcomer to Objectivism who doesn't really give a flying fuck about who insulted who when, can someone explain to me, slowly and clearly, why anyone's still fighting about a 40-year-old affair in which one of the participants actually died in the year of my birth?* If TOC really is trying to kill this Valliant book, why bother? Why don't they start, oh, I don't know, working on posting that Summer Seminar schedule? Or finding someone other than the same three people to write for The New Individualist?

Of course, I'm exaggerating a little. I think the batshit crazy thing started with Diana Hsieh.


*Really. I was born the year Ayn Rand died. We also both get motion sickness when we read or write in the car, which leads me to the unimpeachable conclusion that I am her reincarnation. Then again, if reincarnation really is true, I don't think Rand's ethics would have caused her to remain human. I think she'd probably be a toad or something.



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[info]1144
2006-02-17 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Oh dear god. *holds head*

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[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-17 11:53 pm UTC (link)
Exactly.

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 12:30 am UTC (link)
can someone explain to me, slowly and clearly, why anyone's still fighting about a 40-year-old affair in which one of the participants actually died in the year of my birth?

Because Objectivism remains entirely about Ayn Rand and her inner circle. The movement operates in large part like a religion: it recruits through Rand's fictional work, on the presence of fictional characters and the emotional reactions they elicit. The battle over "who owns Rand" is thus central to the movement.

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[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 02:28 am UTC (link)
Well, maybe that's someone's Objectivism, but it ain't mine. Mine is the reasonable kind that thinks, "Well, of course you need reason to get by. How else would you propose to do it?" and really doesn't give a rat's ass about who snubbed who when.

Wow, that was a lot of cursing, for me. I must be really upset.

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 02:31 am UTC (link)
Well, you've identified your problem, then. Objectivism as a movement does not appeal to you at all.

And needing reason to get by doesn't imply Objectivism nor anything else by iteself, that's one of those pesky Kantian concepts that needs to die.

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[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 02:34 am UTC (link)
Well, as I've always thought when reading your posts about that pesky Kantian concept, as you refer to it--you try it your way, I'll try it mine.

And no, of course the reason thing isn't the only quality of Objectivism. It's just an important one. A certain degree of empiricism is another big one: hence the "you try it your way, I'll try it mine."

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 02:49 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure I've ever mentioned Kant's notion that we can arrive at normatives via exercises in reason alone.

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 02:59 am UTC (link)
*is way impressed at your brilliant combination of moral straightforwardness and pristine intellectual tact*

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 03:04 am UTC (link)
Would you like to explain to me how get some oughts from a list of things that are or how one would arrive at objective moral principles wholly a priori? Are you prepared to offer an example of SAP knowledge?

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 03:19 am UTC (link)
Wow, I got you talking Objectivist content! It's a freaking miracle!! I will compose for you a dignified response forthwith.

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[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 03:21 am UTC (link)
Whew. I'm glad you're going to field that one. ;)

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 03:31 am UTC (link)
Eh? I, and every other sane person, thinks Kant is full of it 90% of the time. His direction might have value in the realm of aesthetics, but that may just be the result of the demeanor of art criticism itself (being, you know, French-oriented...).

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 03:40 am UTC (link)
Are you sure this is to me?

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 03:43 am UTC (link)
Yep. I was replying via e-mail. What's the problem?

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 03:50 am UTC (link)
Problem is that I did not see a connection between your question here to me about how to address certain philosophical questions in the context of your minimal exchange with [info]shannon_f_r referring to Kant. LOL I thought you were asking me for Objectivist answers! SAY IT'S NOT NOT SO! :(

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 04:08 am UTC (link)
You should probably give them, I think you've been promising them to a host of people as it is, myself included.

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 04:10 am UTC (link)
You are really one of those "with friends like you" friends, and you don't pull punches with the low blows.

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 04:16 am UTC (link)
It's not a low blow, it's meant to keep you doing it even if you decided that I am uninterested.

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 04:18 am UTC (link)
The opportunity cost is for me to decide on; your interest is a factor I want from you honestly so that I can decide on what to spend time for myself, thank you.

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 04:15 am UTC (link)
You don't even have a fucking question about Objectivism; what the hell do you want me to answer?

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[info]gaelicone7
2006-02-18 12:18 pm UTC (link)
every other sane person, thinks Kant is full of it 90% of the time

Not to jump into this fray, but that is straight out false, unless you have a pretty bizare understanding of who counts as a sane person, or a false understanding of Kant. Kant has many, many defenders among philosophers today. For example, Hilary Putnam defends Kantian epistemology and metaphysics (he calls his version "internal realism") and Christine Korsgaard is the most prominent defender of Kantian moral theory. These and other Kantians are some of the most prominent and respected philosophers around. So no, Kant really cannot be dismissed so easily at all.

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 02:23 pm UTC (link)
Pssst.... it's not a serious comment.

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 04:07 am UTC (link)
What are you getting at? The validity of reason? The possibility of knowledge?

BTW, Rand's point about Kant's notion of reason is that it's a red herring.

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[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 04:15 am UTC (link)
Not really. I'm getting at fundamental problems with Kant's thesis, namely that SAP knowledge is possible.

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[info]1144
2006-02-18 04:16 am UTC (link)
TTYL on it. I'm done blogging for the night.

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Yes, they've gone crazy
[info]jordanzimmerman
2006-02-18 01:17 am UTC (link)
I'm having a similar reaction as you. The entire community seems to have gone off the deep end.

I've been around longer than you, I guess, so I've seen some of this before. But, I thought it had all died way back then (when the Passion of Ayn Rand came out).

Best that I can tell, the publication of the Passion of Ayn Rands critics has re-ignited very old issues within the movement. What I can't understand is why people (some of which weren't born when Ayn died) are taking sides.

I'm very concerned about this recent blow-up. Our community is small and our beliefs are hated by most of the world. This in-fighting is doing tremendous harm and no good.

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Re: Yes, they've gone crazy
[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 02:25 am UTC (link)
I'm very concerned about this recent blow-up. Our community is small and our beliefs are hated by most of the world. This in-fighting is doing tremendous harm and no good.

Precisely. I'm the first one to call out TOC when they're doing something stupid or counterproductive, but this is nasty, personal, and, perhaps worst of all, sorta masturbatory. I feel like putting everyone in a big room and asking how many of them REALLY have any sort of personal stake in why Branden and Rand broke.

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Re: Yes, they've gone crazy
[info]airstrip
2006-02-18 02:33 am UTC (link)
Hated is too strong a word, most of the world thinks Objectivism is silly and ignorable.

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Re: Yes, they've gone crazy
[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 02:35 am UTC (link)
Yes, we understand. You don't like Objectivism.

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[info]songofapollo
2006-02-18 05:56 am UTC (link)
Who is MSK (referenced in Perigo's letter)?

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[info]john_j_enright
2006-02-18 06:54 am UTC (link)
Michael Stuart Kelly

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[info]john_j_enright
2006-02-18 07:07 am UTC (link)
Yes, it's a snarl-fest lately.

I'm not sure who Robert Bidinotto is reacting to. I'm guessing Lindsay Perigo. Possibly Diana Hsieh as well. The commenters at Bidinotto's site may have dissuaded him from counter-attacking. Some of the fans of The Passion Of Ayn Rand's Critics have been taunting TOC folks for not reading the book, for not selling the book, for not condemning the Brandens on the basis of the book, etc. The TOC people have mostly been taking the line that "this was personal not philosophical". But I gather someone called RB something nasty - and got his back up, at least temporarily.

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[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Well, I understand that it's hard to just lay down when one is attacked, but it also seems wise to avoid posting something snitty about mysterious enemies who you're not going to bother responding to but wish to frighten anyway. It smacks of juvenile Internet fights.

The people at TOC need to avoid giving the impression that they're suppressing anything. I mean, this is their whole gig, right? Openness? Personally, I don't much care about the more salacious details, but I might care about them a little more if I thought someone was trying to hide them. Maybe that's irrational, but that's the way it is. RB shouldn't be criticizing books without having read them. At best, he should take the agnostic position that he doesn't know and doesn't really care. As for Diana Hsieh, I don't think anyone should bother with her. She's made a number of really nasty, personal attacks on people that deserve no credit or consideration. If she wants to get back to philosophical issues, that's fine. I respect dissent.

The whole thing is just bizarre.

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[info]john_j_enright
2006-02-18 07:57 pm UTC (link)
"The people at TOC need to avoid giving the impression that they're suppressing anything. I mean, this is their whole gig, right?"

I agree.

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[info]danielmryan
2006-02-18 08:07 am UTC (link)
Are you glad you started this?

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[info]shannon_f_r
2006-02-18 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Not thrilled, no.

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